The 20 Year Old Ford Escort Cosworth Is Legal And Uncrushable

"Bozi Tatarevic" (hoonable) 03/16/2015 at 10:35 • Filed to: Cosworth

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In order to be legal for import, most cars have to be crash tested and given certification but one man was able to import the Ford Escort RS Cosworth with the equivalent of a video game simulation and the cars are still legal to this day. Most cars that are less than 25 years old can seized by the government and crushed if they are imported without expensive crash testing, but these Cosworth's are the exception.

These cars were imported as 1994 and 1995 models into the US by Sun International. Since Ford was not selling the model domestically they required that all Ford badging be removed to show they had no relation to it here. If you look at the examples that were imported you will notice that they have a slightly different grille and different rear badging to follow this agreement. The only sign that this is actually a Ford may be seen on the center caps of the original wheels.

Due to this being an independent importing effort and not a manufacturer supported distribution of the car, Ford required that the vehicle be marked with "Sun International" as the manufacturer. All of the imported cars are titled as such and listed as being a "Rally Sport" model instead of "Escort". There were a few items that needed to be changed to meet federal regulations but for the most past all of the imported Cosworth's are fairly original.

Tom Calahane of Sun International was able to get these models certified by the DOT by petitioning them to allow a virtual crash test to be admitted instead of submitting a few models for actual crash testing and destruction. This was the first and last time that the DOT has allowed such a test to be admitted and if you are uncertain just take a peak at the Federal Register listed !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Once the virtual crash test was passed they asked for public comment on it and since no comments were received the petition was approved in June of 1995.

Most of the vehicles brought in were the 1995 model year of the T25 version. All of the models brought in featured the signature whale-tail wing and the Cosworth YBT engine which produced 217 horsepower from the stock 2.0L turbocharged engine. The engine is very stout and tuners have pushed some models up to 1000 horsepower. Even in stock form, the cars could reach 60 mph in about 5.7 seconds. The reason this Cosworth model popped back into my head is the mention of this one for sale !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of whether it would be crushed. You can feel safe buying this one and any of the other one imported by Sun as they are certified by DOT and some of them have even been CARB certified in California.

[Photo Credit: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ]

Bozi is the founder of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and creates articles on everything from engine swaps to late model car restorations. You can follow him on !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! or drop him a line at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Dsscats > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 10:40

23

No, THOSE 20 year old Escort Cosworths are legal. Not all of them.

505Turbeaux > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 10:42

31

I am having a

moment

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 10:46

1

Gee...

Imagine if Ford would sell a 3-door coupe version of Focus RS that isn't ugly (as in no carp-face)

It doesn't seem like it is that hard... yet nobody builds a new equivalent to this, despite all the popularity of 2.0T engines of various corporate designs, and AWD.

Bozi Tatarevic > Dsscats 03/16/2015 at 10:55

2

The Sun models already here are legal and others can be imported if they are fitted with equivalent safety equipment

Bozi Tatarevic > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/16/2015 at 10:55

0

Exactly

ranwhenparked > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 11:04

5

That is fantastic. I never knew the DOT would ever accept a virtual crash test, so the answer on that would be that they did once, but never, never again.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 11:08

2

Isn't there some stipulation that federalized models have to be brought over by an approved importer from the DOTs list?

webmonkees > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 11:11

1

Always obey local regulations when acquiring your rally Escort.

Bozi Tatarevic > Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed 03/16/2015 at 11:15

2

Correct. A Registered Importer has to do it or you have to create a contract with a Registered Importer to fit the safety equipment by yourself or another shop. This is their official stance on new imports based on an already passed certification:

4. Importing a vehicle already determined eligible for importation.

NHTSA makes import eligibility decisions on a make, model, and model year basis. A list of vehicles that NHTSA has determined to be eligible for importation can be found on our web site at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/imp… . If the vehicle you are seeking to import is of a make, model, and model year that is on that list, it can be imported by an RI, or by a person who has a contract with an RI to modify the vehicle so that it conforms to all applicable FMVSS and bumper standards after importation. At the time that NHTSA determines a vehicle of a particular make, model, and model year to be eligible for importation, the agency assigns the vehicle a unique vehicle eligibility number. That number is to be entered on the appropriate block of the HS-7 Declaration form that is to be given to Customs at the time of importation. The number alerts Customs to the fact that the vehicle can be lawfully imported (by an RI or by a person who has a contract with an RI to modify the vehicle), even though the vehicle was not originally manufactured to comply with all applicable FMVSS.

Dusty Ventures > Bozi Tatarevic 03/16/2015 at 12:15

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Good lord I need this

detailer4u > Dusty Ventures 03/17/2015 at 13:03

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...... and the good Lord knows I agree!

Vlan1 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:05

0

Holy Fuck that rear wing is Ludicrous.

daender > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:06

5

PARTY

Treemendous > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:09

1

Lookup the word 'everything' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of this.

TurboS60 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:11

0

I would give me left nut for one of these.

Wacko > webmonkees 03/17/2015 at 13:11

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really they take an escort, when there is a Air cooled porsche right beside it.

Harrison Voorhees > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:12

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This is my favorite Ford of all time. Maybe one day...

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/17/2015 at 13:13

1

I already plan on buying a Focus RS when I graduate, but if Ford released a coupe or 3 door version it would cement my decision even further.

too many burners > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:14

0

This and a new RS would be a pretty sweet pair.

dogisbadob > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:15

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Not crushable because it isn't an electric car

Humpty-D > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:15

0

How much are these going for now days?

Redbulldidlo > Wacko 03/17/2015 at 13:17

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Stolen to order, they probably had a buyer for the escort.

frogberg > Dusty Ventures 03/17/2015 at 13:17

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We all do.

suss6052 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/17/2015 at 13:17

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There won't be another 3 door Focus of any kind, at least not until three door cars start to sell again in Europe as well as the rest of the world in that size and price class.

Get over it, or buy the Golf GTi if it bothers you that much.

If it made economic sense to sell a standard 3 door hatchback then making a 3 door RS would be simple, but they aren't going to waste development dollars on something they plan on building only a fraction of the total sales volume of the base model. They might finally build over 20k of the current series RS but that's only because they will be selling them in the USA, Canada, and the entire globe instead of primarily just Europe and Asia.

Matt > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:21

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Are there any importers that are considering bringing like models in currently? I would be VERY interested in one.

Kanaric > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:23

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SOME are legal. However if you have to import it you aren't getting a legal car.

Sierra or Sierra Sapphire Cosworth would be worth importing right now and legal while you wait for these to become more available.

The Sapphire and this Escort are the same chassis anyways.

stevomr5 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:24

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Sun International also had great success bringing Renault R5 turbos of all variants

Kanaric > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/17/2015 at 13:24

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These cars are expensive to make and sell for a lot of money and only give a limited amount of power compared to V8 cars. They probably just can't find a slot in their lineups for them.

In 10 years you will be talking about how ugly cars are then and how you wish cars looked like focus again. I'm tired of seeing "this generation of cars are ugly, last was great" recycled by infinity.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/17/2015 at 13:25

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Yeah, just make a completely new body from scratch... (There are no MK3 3 door Foci.)

TooManyCarsMike > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:26

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So much WANT! I want one soo bad. If I had $50K to spend, I would really consider this

theshinobi01 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:31

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Wow I never knew they imported these into America, good to know!

suss6052 > Dsscats 03/17/2015 at 13:37

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Yes, this. Unless it was converted and imported the same exact way, which is highly unlikely now the true Ford Escort RS Cosworth is not road legal here until it's 25+ years old. These were converted into the Sun Rally Sport or whatever and had their ford badging deleted.

It's like the Motorex Skylines v.s. any other similar vintage skyline, those that were converted properly are road legal, the rest aren't.

son of a Sven > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:40

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Cossies are definitely in my Top 5 of all time

Brodieman > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:41

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Yep, and my buddy Chris has this one:

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/my-buddy-bough…

It's so cool.

SX-70 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:42

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always liked these cars, from the moment they were announced. The rally antics just sweetened the deal for me.

Bonus, I live on the States so an Escort Cossie isn't a thief magnet like back in the Old Country. Wasn't it, like, Britains most stolen vehicle for a few years? Or was that the Sierra?

S11Steve > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:47

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At least some of them still survive - they are so rare over here as they were the preferred motor of joyriders and ram raiders for the best part of the 90's. The fact the door could be opened with a teaspoon did nothing to help their "keepability".

A friend of mine bought one in 1998, living on the edge of a dog rough area near Heathrow he got it home, then found that the annual insurance premium was more than he paid for the car - IIRC the car cost him about £12,000. It was kept in a garage for two months before he sold it on.

DCV > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:49

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Mmmmm! So much want.

Forty61Graphics > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:50

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I do love me a whale-tailed Escy. Maybe one day..

8695Beaters > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:51

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Holy shit why aren't more people doing this! Not importing Cozzies (though yes, more of that too please), but why aren't more people submitting computer simulations to bypass crash regulations? This is the biggest hurtle to importing cars independently, so if the DOT would approve these, then the flood gates could open for bringing over awesome cars. Emissions is a lot easier to deal with since it's pretty well known how you clean up a car's tailpipe. And with computer simulations being so much better than they were back in the 90s, this should be even more accurate.

That said, I can imagine this would be incredibly time intensive and therefore still really expensive. You'd have to model each component and assemble them correctly, which would probably take months. Per car. Still, if there was enough interest, you could make it financially viable...

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:52

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All I have to say is...

r9ninor9 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 13:59

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How weird is it that I almost want this as much as a new C7 Stingray (next year hopefully).

bratkitty > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/17/2015 at 14:00

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Someone in my apartment complex has a FoST and it looks like this: D:

jalopwarg > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:06

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Blah, blah, blah. HOW MUCH???

Izaerian > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:12

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On a near weekly basis on my drive to work I pass a guy who drives an original late 80's Escort and instinctively say out loud "Whatta Fux Ford??" Then I cry a little inside knowing we got a shit box that could have been cool in that perfect 80s way, and Europe got turbos and a ridiculous tuner base...

Boss2452stolemylunchmoney > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:26

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Bestill my beating heart!

I'm Abe Froman > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:30

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So the real culprit is no more VR crash testing. This would be a good loophole to make importing cheaper.

PNW20v > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:42

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I just recently saw a guy rolling around my pretty small city in one of these. I just about shit my pants. One of the "My eyes are telling me one thing, but I cannot believe it" type of moments.

Blakkar > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 14:55

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Just throwing it out there, why is it that FORD, among others, do not make AWD Compacts on regular basis. They don't have to be 300+hp rally inspired monsters, 160+hp is fine.

Performance, safety for the unskilled and unwilling to be skilled, a better platform for tuning and modification, important development time and input into what is widely considered a next major step in performance evolution, AWD. Why it AWD only given to CUVs and not cars on a more regular basis? Seriously Ford could make a Fusion "SHO", with AWD and the 2.7L TT-V6. Why is it such a burden for FORD to FINALLY bring the Focus RS to the US and OR importantly make it AWD.

I know they wanted to get it perfect or as close to it as possible, before shipping this super-sophisticated , torque vectoring, easily used on other cars, AWD system, but what was stopping them from doing less complex and sophisticated systems for performance models. It is not like this stuff was that difficult. It is basically the same as has been used in S/CUVs for well over a decade at this point.

C'mon really GM! the GMC Syclone and Typhoon, yeah trucks, compact trucks and SUVs, but with a kick ass- if basic - AWD system. They are drag strip favorites TO THIS DAY. No they didn't handle great, but they were trucks. I got over it. What about you?

Why did GM NOT put the Chocolate and the Peanut Butter together and make an AWD G-body coupe or and AWD version of one of they FF mid-size sedans or coupes? Why didn't FORD go ahead on the AWD option for the MN-12 cars, Thunderbird, Cougar, Mark VIII? CHRYSLER should have kept the Caliber abut restyled it and pushed an AWD version, built the Avenger Stormtrooper and the Arts SRT-6, and AWD 300/Charger/Challenger SRT-8s and Hellcats.

I still totally believe if Detroit put some interest int their cars they would not have been so lop-sided on trucks and SUVs come 2008. NO they would not have stopped the glut, but they would have been able to control it better and mitigate effect of the downturn.

What is wrong with these dummies that everyone else in the world got the really cool cars, until recently?

fivepointnine > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 15:09

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I wish I could buy one of those or an early Sierra Cosworth, but anything with the word "Cosworth" on it here in the UK is still worth a small fortune. To compare, one of my co-workers just bought a low mileage 2007 Fiesta ST 150 for less than 3500 pounds. Yeah most used cars are cheap here!

DanPadge > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 15:19

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Sun International can import more 1994 and 1995 Cosworths and convert them to Sun Rally Sports but I'd be surprised if anyone else can. It depends on if the Sun Rally Sport was federalized or if it was the Ford Cosworth, among many other things.

Bozi Tatarevic > Brodieman 03/17/2015 at 15:30

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Nice looking car, although I prefer the smaller wing

Bozi Tatarevic > Kanaric 03/17/2015 at 15:34

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Yep, Cosworth Escort was built over the Sapphire chassis and has nothing similar to USDM Escort

Bozi Tatarevic > 8695Beaters 03/17/2015 at 15:36

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They stopped accepting the virtual crash test after these were imported

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 15:36

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Any idea what the required safety upgrades were?

Conan > Dusty Ventures 03/17/2015 at 15:54

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They're made of hoon and rally cred.

Turbo Donuts > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 15:57

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My neighbor has had a red one in his garage for at least 4 years now. He's got all types of nice Euro tuners in and out over the years. I should ask him about it some time

Bozi Tatarevic > Turbo Donuts 03/17/2015 at 16:01

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Is it a showpiece or does he actually take it out?

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > suss6052 03/17/2015 at 16:45

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To hell with product diversity, then, I guess...

heaven forbid that a product be sold that might not sell to absolutely everyone.

Frankly, that is one thing I REALLY don't like about business mentality, that a product isn't worth the effort if it isn't a BIG seller...

...and part of the blame goes to the government for making federalization of various body styles, and various drivetrains in the same platform base. The lack of type-federalization, with minimal verification that variants also meet the main platform's crash test and safety regs... and lack of engine-type certification for placement in multiple models, is ridiculous.

If platform-type and engine-type federalization was more widespread, and it didn't cost tens of millions of dollars to re-verify a variant body-style with a variant engine of an already established platform and engine, it wouldn't be so prohibitively expensive to sell cars in general, and niche cars specifically.

In this highly technically adept day and age, that sort of restriction is choking the industry... and the manufacturers don't seem too bothered by the limitation being placed on them, and thus on their customers who buy their products.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Kanaric 03/17/2015 at 16:48

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CARP FACE SAYS WHAT?

There are prettier cars than that old Escort RS Cosworth, but new cars are NOT an improvement, and are bulkier and less space efficient, more over-styled, and ridiculous looking than ever.

If it gets worse than this in another twenty years... this will still not look good, and we'll all be in even MORE trouble.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/17/2015 at 16:51

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Bodies are the EASIEST part of a car to re-design, if the chassis hard points, drivetrain, and manufacturing contact points stay the same.

Why do you think so many cars share platforms, yet there are multiple varying body-styles of various sizes?

adstubbs > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 16:56

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I wanted one of these so badly when they first appeared (when I was about 15). The launch in the UK coincided with a spike in car crime that meant some insurers quoted a year's cover at pretty much the price of the car. I made do with a Tamiya RC version in rally spec.

Mojoker5 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 17:49

1

Looks like a Lotus Carlton behind the Cossie in your top image. (or maybe a look a like since they were originally green according to Wikipedia) more from the wiki

The Lotus Omega (Carlton in the UK) produced 377 bhp (281 kW; 382 PS) and 419 lbft (568 Nm) (of which 350 lbft (470 Nm) was available from 2000 rpm.) [5] The car was capable of 0–60 mph in 5.2 seconds and achieve 0–100-0 mph in less than 17 seconds. Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear. The Lotus Carlton/Omega held the title of the fastest four-door saloon car for some years.

Ian W > Blakkar 03/17/2015 at 17:54

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chrysler did make awd calibers, chargers magnums and 300s. The calibers were not the srt versions which would have been nice. But they still made them. And the charger/magnum/300 could be had with awd and the 5.7 hemi.

Mr Ordinary > Dusty Ventures 03/17/2015 at 18:10

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There is one of these near where I live.

I sometimes have fun with him in my RB5 although he has quite a bit more straight line performance (my car is about 375bhp) so who knows what he's making!

I always loved the clean design of the front of the car and the whale tail or 'towel rail' as people call them (my RB5 has a big prodrive wing too).

I always remember as a kid Jeremy Clarkson saying they were one of the best cars he had ever driven.

There were some brilliant drivers cars for these roads (England) made around that time. My other favourite of that era was the Delta Integrale!

Dillon Hatton > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 18:17

1

This is my favorite non-domestic ford on the planet.

CharlieBronsonOfLuton > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 18:55

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so goddamn cool

groves226 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 19:27

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Doug Demuro needs this

Wayne Prosser > DCV 03/17/2015 at 19:38

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They are not so rare here in the UK a quick search and I can find 5 for sale on the first site I looked at. Less around $30,000. Same with the Sierra cossie although I know from working on these cars the front bumper's are hard to find and the first thing broken. I worked on a race tuned RS500 which had an engine worth $25,000. It was faster than my eyes could process what was going on !!

GBond > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 19:57

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A legal, imported 20 y/o escort? Sign me up!

DCV > Wayne Prosser 03/17/2015 at 19:59

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Yeah, I know that. Aside from the Escort, I was also referring to what (at the time of writing) I thought looked like Lotus Carlton behind it, although, I've just reminded myself that they were all painted in dark green, so it's probably a regular Vauxhall (or Opel). Although, if it has a straight 6 it's still a pretty good car.

ILovePickeldEggs > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 20:10

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They are all exempt. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/imp…

ILovePickeldEggs > Dsscats 03/17/2015 at 20:10

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They are all exempt http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/imp…

Turbo Donuts > Bozi Tatarevic 03/17/2015 at 20:15

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I bet he takes it for a quick drive once a month, but I've never seen it on the road. It's immaculate!

Yogurt > Dsscats 03/17/2015 at 21:57

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Which "THOSE" are you talking about?

ALL 1994-1995 Ford Escort RS Cosworths are legal for import as long as they have the correct paper work and whatever is required by the NHTSA to be modified to bring the car into compliance is done by an RI. There are both general and model specific changes required. Example: Change speedo to read in MPH (All) or move the door crash bars. (R33 GT-R/GTS-T)

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/imp…

Notice that it says "Ford Escort RS Cosworth, 1994-1995." not "Sun International"

At one time, the cars may have need to be called "Sun International Rally Sport" or whatever, otherwise the NHTSB would say so on the document.

A customer of mine has one and next time I see him will ask him if his title says "Sun International" or "Ford."

Blakkar > Ian W 03/17/2015 at 22:09

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That is so.Thee were AWD Calibers. I didn't quite recall them.

As for the 300, Charger, Challenger, and Magnum (which they NEED to bring back), I was talking about the SRT-8 and Hellcat models, which are RWD only. I have known about the AWD V8 models since they first came out. But a full load out SRT-8 or Hellcat with AWD would have been AWESOME!

savagedoughnut > Brodieman 03/17/2015 at 23:37

0

wow. I would love to see that car at the E30 picnic this year in tacoma.

Its the only time i get to make it up to Griots Garage. So much awesome is happening there.

Nomind > Kanaric 03/17/2015 at 23:48

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As posted elsewhere on here, the 94-95 Escort Cosworth is listed on the NHTSA list of eligible cars for import.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/imp…

Vic788 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/18/2015 at 02:02

0

talk with an "RI" importer and get a letter off to the DOT & EPA written by an import broker and an attorney before you bring one into the USA. And please do not buy a car in Canada and roll up to the border crossings. Once you have the letter you can roll across and present the approvals you have to the crossing officer make sure you get all names and contact info along with your import broker and full details. I do appreciate the op's effort, but I'd lastly hate to see someone get the wrong info mixed up, or turned around and worse their car taken. Good luck

Svend > Bozi Tatarevic 03/18/2015 at 03:09

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Regrettably even in Europe it seems like these three door cars are a dying breed. Sure you can get smaller ones like the Fiesta in a three door here as well as a five door but Focus sized vehicles from many manufacturers are only coming out in five door guise these days with the remaining ones phasing them out.

The last Focus three door was the Mk2 back in 2009-2010.

Leon711 > Bozi Tatarevic 03/18/2015 at 04:54

0

Brands Hatch

BLKMGK > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/18/2015 at 07:57

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I bought a Subaru RS2.5 with an STi drivetrain and STi interior swapped in, problem solved :-) Oh, it's a 2 door model coupe.

GTI Sprinks > Bozi Tatarevic 03/18/2015 at 08:49

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Bozi, no reasoning behind the ban of virtual testing was announced in that docket you posted. Have you found one recently? I'd wager because the computing power to run that simulation in 95 is nothing to what we'd be able to do 20 years later with FEA available on desktop machines these days.

dreygata > Bozi Tatarevic 03/18/2015 at 09:01

2

Hm, this brings up a good point. Since computers have vastly increased in computing power since the mid-90s, what would be wrong with submitting, say, 1000 crash test scenarios that were create from computer simulation? Isn't that what Google did in California to help speed up passage of the driverless car?

Yes, there are some things that require actual crash testing, but couldn't the physical crash testing be supplemented with computer simulation? Say 100 or 1000 simulations to replace 1 physical crash test or something, but still require 2 or 3 physical crash tests vs whatever they require now. It could really bring down the cost of importing cars.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > BLKMGK 03/18/2015 at 11:29

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STI-swapped GC coupes are awesomely fun little cars. The only thing it would be missing is a lift back hatch.

Someone tried a 3-door, mixing the coupe doors and body sides, and a 22B replica fender flare set, with the back end of a 5-door with the hatch... but I think the project ran out of money and the customer's interest before the shop finished the car...

http://www.scoobynet.com/members-galler…

the image above is photoshop conjecture about how it might look finished, but I believe the photograph is more indicative as to how it sits now, gathering dust in a custom shop in England.

With current STI drivetrain tech... that would be a force to be reckoned with in pretty much every respect. It looks like a mix between that Escort RS, and the export version of the Sierra, what we know as Merkur XR4Ti, with the split quarter windows.

Good (maybe not ultra-great, but pretty darn good, especially with those 22B STI fender flares) looks, versatility, cargo capability, 300+ horsepower, and the best available AWD system on the market...

Hell, put Outback Sport suspension spacers and long-throw Bilsteins, forged wheels and aggressive tires, and it is a road-legal Rally Car, ready to go ANYWHERE.

BigManLittleHair > daender 03/18/2015 at 13:30

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amazing hooning. i think that is Colin McRae being 'lapped' by i think Carlos Sanz.

Jon > theshinobi01 03/18/2015 at 15:23

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You're not out of the loop, they never did, until now...

Kanaric > Nomind 03/18/2015 at 16:41

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It still has to pass smog. It still has to be converted to DOT standards. Not worth it. Wait for legality.

It would be nice to have sitting in your garage waiting for $20,000 of body and engine work.

Getting it to be accepted by DOT is the hard part. If it's 21 years old you don't have to worry about smog.

BLKMGK > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/18/2015 at 20:22

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Biggest issue is rust, my car was completely gone through and painted but it's still a battle and I'll be doing some POR15 this Summer. I'm looking forward to the Focus RS, it may very well replace my current daily.

I like that wagon and it would've looked great had it been finished. A friend is finishing a RHD widebody setup that is just about down to needing paint to be done. It's going to be pretty sweet but it's a GC like mine. Fun cars, I hope the RS AWD proves as good!

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/23/2015 at 15:12

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Design is only a part of the cost of building a 2 door car. They then have to get it re-certified in every market for safety, as well as new dies for stamping body parts, possibly modifying the line, etc. It's not as a simple as you believe it to be.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/23/2015 at 17:32

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Re-federalization is the problem as to why they don't much exist... but countries that do have type-certification based on model platform have less trouble with including varying body-styles on the same type-certified platform.

Manufacturing uses chassis hard points, which is why the same lines can build sedans, coupes, wagons, hatchbacks, and CUVS all based on the same platform, on the same assembly lines.

designing and producing body-specific changes are not feasible things for the aftermarket to do, but in terms of what a manufacturer does... is among the EASIEST changes that they implement.

Why do you think companies like these make SO MANY body-style and configuration variants world-wide, on just a few common platforms?

Because it is so much easier than building every model from scratch, and they have the processes to handle that variation based around common chassis hard-points.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/23/2015 at 19:03

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If it were so simple and cheap, Ford would already be making a 3 door hatch or a coupe like they did with MK1, MK1.5, and Mk2 in the U.S., and MK1 and MK2 in Europe. If it's just our re-federalization laws, why isn't a 3 door or 2 door focus made anywhere for any market?

Check mate.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/23/2015 at 23:23

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Because millions of people like you rationalize, and accept the premise that Ford always knows best, and will buy anything they'll build, so they can cut costs, and offer less diversity and more compromise, and still sell cars to you.

Why should they build something better or in addition, when people will buy whatever they are fed?

Ford Corporate bean counters are still bean counters, not usually car guys, and like to keep revenue, more than building all of the cool cars they are capable of building.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/24/2015 at 12:54

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Yes millions. Because millions really want a 3 door hatch RS. We are officially in hyperbole now. Also I love your assumption that I'll just buy "anything Ford sells".,that's why I currently drive a car with a boxer engine.

In each of your replies to me, you take one factual argument, and lather it in logical fallacy, it's quite enjoyable.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/24/2015 at 13:54

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Be specific. I did NOT say millions of people want this particular model of car, I merely asserted that there is a possibility that enough demand would exist to make such a product profitable, if EVEN JUST ONE SUCH PRODUCT WERE AVAILABLE. Actual economic demand cannot exist for a non-existent good or service... it must remain potential demand, which is much harder to identify and measure.

I DID say that millions of people share your apparent mentality, that auto-makers (or any other corporation or government that you don't have personal contact with) are somehow above reproach, infallible, ultimately magnanimous, and if they don't do something, there is automatically an iron-clad reason that it won't work. Millions of people, apparently you included, share that delusion that seems to be an effect of marketing.

Millions of people set aside their own reason willingly, to defer to people they don't know, who have motivations that might not align, and are just as mistake-prone as anyone else. When the decision-makers' goals are not aligned with the products that customers might actually want... lack of that product is quite likely, despite the potential for the product to do well, simply by the producers and the customers not seeing eye-to-eye, not necessarily because the premise is somehow flawed.

There are plenty among that crowd of people that treat Subaru and Porsche (boxer engine producers, one of which you have purchased from) with the same worshipfulness and un-earned deference.

Subaru especially, considering how badly Subaru under-delivers on their huge un-tapped potential, also... yet the Subaru fanboys still eat up whatever excuse Subaru gives for cutting models, cutting body styles, cutting option availability, and cutting drivetrain choices.

Yet Subaru is selling in record numbers, with the blandest, most BORING lineup they have ever had... because THEY CAN. They can make their money and their goals, without actually producing an interesting product... and their remaining performance-oriented products are more limited than they have been...

The BRZ is under-powered and under-whelming, which could simply be solved with an FA20DIT engine option.

WRX is under-equipped, and only offered in a tradition-bound sedan body style with no cargo versatility. (why I ditched my Legacy GT sedan, also... great car, but SUCKED to try to handle cargo, and the wagons got cancelled, too... both Legacy GT wagon, and later Outback XT)

WRX STI doesn't even have the new generation engine, but rather a 10 year old drivetrain, the same sedan-only limitation, and still costs as much as ever.

There could be both 5-door hatchbacks or wagons, and 3-door coupes like the Escort RS above, if Subaru actually WANTED to sell some performance cars... they have done 3-body-style variants in the past, with the GC-generation cars. They could easily use WRX or STI equipment in the XV Crosstrek, and keep the Light Truck CAFE classification, too, but they don't.

Pointing out the fallibilities like this is the reason my description is "troublesome iconoclast", and why I no longer drive a car with a boxer engine, after previously owning two.

I have long been combatting fanboyism worship of industry decision makers who frequently make bad or odd decisions, in relation to the customer-base for their products, and don't live up to their potential.

They are not infallible. They are not automatically correct. They are not ultimately magnanimous, and if they can get away with meeting their sales goals without expending more than minimal effort or monetary outlay, they likely will... and often give no thought to the people who might actually buy their product, if they offered more than they currently do.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/24/2015 at 14:25

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So many assumptions about me. Hat tip.

You have fabricated some "mentaility" that I have, and place me into a massive and bottomless hyperbole of an argument with a lump of mindless consumers.

I'm not a fan boy of any brand, and I buy what I want. I had an SVT focus, when Ford didn't give us the MK2 ST, or any decent peformance hatch, I went to a Saabaru, because I like performance hatches. Subaru doesn't offer the new WRX in a wagon/hatch, I'll be going to a Focus ST or RS, or maybe a Golf R/GTI.

You are making a very common mistake that many make on when getting in an argument on the internet. Because I disagree with your position, you assume that I am from the polar opposite. A FALSE assumption.

My only point was that to expect Ford to make a 3 door or 2 door variant ONLY for the RS doesn't make financial sense, and you haven't properly refuted that point. They built 11,500 MK2 RS' world wide. That's a very small production number for a product that still has a pretty price conscious buyer. Sure they COULD make a 3 door RS, and it would be significantly more money. More crash tests, line changes to accomodate, new presses to stamp longer doors, new sheetmetal etc. If they decided to offer a 3 door hatch in all model levels, that would make a lot more sense.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/24/2015 at 14:34

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I was operating from the premises you put forward, which is the only information I have about you, and you were ascribing manufacturers both with more credit for decision-making, and less capability for modularity, than they warrant.

As for the "RS Only" bit about the coupe, I agree that it would be too specific, but Escorts and Focuses have been coupes for a very long time, not just the top performance model, it is not such a stretch to figure that they could also sell some coupes that aren't RS-model trim, and I never asserted that it would HAVE to be RS-only.

The Escort at the top of this thread was not the only variant of that generation of european Escort coupes. No generation has seen a coupe body style restricted to only the performance variant, nor would I expect it to be the case in the future.

But it is a shame to assume that Ford Mustang, or the limited-production CF Ford GT are the only two coupes that Ford can afford to offer in it's whole world-wide lineup, and that companies like Subaru can barely even afford to offer one, and only with the shared development input of Toyota.

How then can Lexus justify the RC? Or Hyundai justify the Genesis, Veloster, and Elantra coupes simultaneously with the Genesis and Elantra sedan platforms, as well as their CUVs?

If manufactures were as inflexible as you seem to assert, there would be far fewer cars than there already are... I am merely making the case for a couple more variants in some cases, which should be EASY to implement, if the desire to do so were to exist with the decision makers.... like say if they were actually interested in cars more than interested in stock prices and corporate market capitalization.

Manufacturers are BIG businesses, and they can afford to be flexible with their products, rather than just being interested in finance, however they happen to go about generating revenue being secondary or lower priority.

All of the "line changes" that you assert cost so much money, are already modular, as manufacturers build multiple body styles of their platforms already, and the economies of scale make the changes affordable. They already change body styles regularly, and manufacture multiple bodies on the same manufacturing line already, with a plethora of model-specific pieces. That sort of flexibility has long since been mastered.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/24/2015 at 14:49

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You were operating from false assumptions you came to from the premise I put forward, which was simply that making a 3 or 2 door focus is not as simple as you believe it to be. The rest you stretched too on your own.

Everything that you assert to be "modular" does not make it free. Yes lines are flexible, to an extent, but each time you shut down to change it costs money, and building in additional capability to be able to build a new body style can add money. Not to mention the additional cost of making new parts. The doors on a 3 door hatch or a 2 door coupe would be longer than the doors on a regular focus. That's a whole new die set to make a new door skin, and another for the door frame. The same goes for the rear quarter, changes to roof line, etc, etc. In a former although recent life I worked tool and die for companies that supplied the big 3.

Yes it could be perceived that Ford could still make a 3 door hatch, if they made it across trim levels. The reason they didn't is that they were selling in lower and lower numbers, and studies showed that most that would like a 3 door hatch, will take a 4 door hatch. (The Focus Coupe sold here from 2008-2011 solid in abysmal numbers.)

As for your argument that the 94-95 Escort RS Cosworth was the only coupe version of that body style, you'd be wrong. Here is a 1992, (made from 92-96 5th gen) EU model Escort coupe/lift back.

rear shot:

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/24/2015 at 14:59

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A second reply as you were so long winded:

You bring up a lot of other cars, that are entirely separate. The genesis coupe is a sport coupe, their equivalent of the Mustang you mentioned.

The Veloster, well that one's funny, as it has 2 doors on the passenger side, 1 on the driver, and that is the ONLY form it comes in. They don't make a sedan, 5 door hatch, and 3 door hatch body style of the Veloster. These are very poor examples that do not back up your point at all. Also, as for your Hyundai platform example:

The Veloster is built on the FS platorm
The Gensesis is built on the BK platform
The Elantra is built on the Hyundai-Kia J5 platform.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kmac720 03/24/2015 at 15:00

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RE-READ... I said that the Escort RS Cosworth WAS NOT THE ONLY ESCORT COUPE trim line of it's generation, in my previous post.

For someone who belabors minutea, you sure don't pay attention to the details.

What makes you think that Ford would have to shut down anything? Do you have any idea how modern manufacturing works? Multiple body styles of shared-platform vehicles go down the assembly line one next to the other.

They don't shut down the line to make a batch of a different variant... they make them ALL continuously, based on allocations and specific orders.

You talk about assumptions, yet you assume that manufacturing is far more antiquated than it is.

I never said it would be free, but obviously it is affordable. Manufacturers ARE DOING IT ALREADY with many other models.

Just because the US-market 2008-2011 Focus coupe was abysmally boring and ugly, and drove about as engagingly as a reeling in a dead fish... and wasn't received well, doesn't mean that the premise of a coupe is inherently flawed. It is no wonder why people didn't buy that chunk of boring on wheels.

It also has to do with the federalization mandates that I mentioned several posts ago, which make niche models less profitable, in general, which is not the customers's fault.

TAKE A LOOK AROUND, PLEASE. Plenty of car manufacturers make many platform-shared vehicles, on the same lines, at appropriate price points... some of which INCLUDE COUPES.

You are pushing an erroneous assumption yourself that it is somehow prohibitive to do so, while manufacturers are currently doing it in other contexts than this specific one.

You may want to check your own assumptions while you continue to belabor that word in my direction.

kmac720 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 03/24/2015 at 15:05

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I love the anger let it out! I'm sorry I misread your comment, I was working quickly as what you wrote was 1000 words long.

I'll await your response to my other comment about the "shared" Hyundai platforms you mentioned, as the Hyundai models you listed are actually on several different platforms.

All of this aside, do you maybe think there is a reasons so few 2 door coupe/3 door hatch economy cars exist? Why no Cruze coupe? Why no Focus Coupe? Why no Dart coupe?

I would argue that it's not mindless consumers taking what they are given, but rather manufacturers shifting to not waste money making version of vehicles very few people buy. It's the same reason we see so few wagons here, and so many CUVs. The sales don't justify the cost to make them. (Yes including the federalization you mentioned, which I have AGREED on.)